From ???@??? Fri Jul 19 15:02:51 1996
X-State:  3
X-Total-length:     25403
Received: from NS.MPGN.COM (NS.MPGN.COM [206.66.87.254]) by mail-e2a-service.gnn.com (8.7.1/8.6.9) with SMTP id FAA16288; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 05:54:40 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by NS.MPGN.COM (8.6.9/8.6.9) id DAA19327 for traveller-digest-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:49:09 -0400
X-UIDL: 837817265.005
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 03:49:09 -0400
Message-Id: <199607170749.DAA19327@NS.MPGN.COM>
From: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #262
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Errors-To: owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 17 July 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 262

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. insider trading
         2. Generating heat and light
         3. Linguistic referents
         4. Imperial Family Stock (Td V96#236)
         5. Re: Ship design on the Web
         6. Re: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)
         7. Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
         8. Re: Imperial Family Stock (Td V96#236)
         9. Re: Culture and Realism 
        10. Re: Mars\Moon Stuff
        11. Re: Mars\Moon Stuff
        12. Re: Realism
        13. Good explanation of jump process
        14. conversation with Lester Smith
        15. Re:  The Iridium Standard
        16. Traveller miniatures
        17. ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
        18. Re: "TNE Wrap-Up" (tying up the loose ends)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:48:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: insider trading

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 20:22:36 -0500 (CDT)

>Perhaps, in the Far Future, acquiring trading information prior to its 
>public release, then trading based on that information, will be illegal 
>as well.

I'll bet that the Zhodani don't have any problems with insider trading.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:49:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Generating heat and light

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Liam McCauley wrote:
>
>>      It's funny (no, honest it is) that this is the longest running thread 

>I have a theory about that.  I've noticed that the more complete the 

>So, when you make such a post, be it a ship design or an exhaustively 
>detailed study of some aspect of the Imperium, and you get no response:
>consider that a standing ovation. :)

What Joe said.

- --Glenn



------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:49:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Linguistic referents

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>I've thought about this sort of thing a number of times while reading 
>science fiction.  It IS a quandry, isn't it?  The author can either have 
>the characters speaking in what, to us, would be gibberish (which the 
>author would then have to, rather laboriously, explain) most of the time, 
>or the author can sprinkle the text with gibberish (which can be 
>explained here and there) and keep the rest to what a 20th century reader 
>can understand the referent for immediately.

This is a big problem.  Sometimes I just ignore it when I referee or play.
If all of the participants are willing to speak in the appropriate dialect,
however, role-playing is greatly enhanced.  When the dialect has to be
imagined, and has to incorporate future social and technological changes,
it's very hard to do (much harder than being the berserk Irish dwarf that
one friend always played in D&D).  

Alfred Bester's The Stars My Destination handles gutter patois very well,
using plain English words with slight grammatical twists to convey a
different dialect (Me, preaching language, is all.  Listen up, or don't.)
The Star My Destination has just been reissued; I recommend it.  Another
well-known resource is Anthony Burgess' A Clockwork Orange, but he found it
necessary to include a glossary.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 19:48:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Imperial Family Stock (Td V96#236)

>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>

>I'd also suggest that (legally speaking) the Imperial Family's stock can be
>sold or transferred ... but that doing so is considered to be such an
>indication of Imperial displeasure with the company (or a sign that the
>Emperor believes the company's failure is imminent) that most non-MegaCorps
>would find it hard to do business afterward.

That precludes the Imperial family from taking profits.  The only way that
the family could profit then would be by holding only preferred stock that
paid substantial dividends.  

The market manipulation implicit in such customs would also allow the
Imperial family to destabilize the securities markets.  Maybe that's not a
problem -- after, the Emperor is an autocrat.  (Noble #1:  "I hear that
Strephon's taking a hundred million share short position in Instellarms."
Noble #2:  "Maybe he knows something we don't -- we'd better dump our
holdings, too."  Noble #3:  "Well, my broker is EF Hutton, LIC ....")

Of course, we don't know the extent of the Imperial family's holdings of
debt securities.  I suspect that those holdings are comparable to the
family's equity positions.


------------------------------

From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Date: 17 Jul 96 13:25:12 +0000
Subject: Re: Ship design on the Web

- --smxr-960717132512791 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

On 16 July, Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley) said:
     
> [Talking about a web form for generating vehicles for the game Dirtside II ] 
> it wouldn't be too dificult (for someone else ;-)) to create a form for 
> generating T4 ships using the QSDS.
     
This is the sort of thing I was trying to achieve with my Java page. Eventually 
(I hope to get started some time soon) it will guide the creation of the entire 
ship using the SSDS rules. It currently does the hulls - please have a look and 
tell me if it fits the sort of thing you were thinking of.
     
>  Maybe IG could then put it on their web page as an official resource?
     
        Now I like that idea!
     
BFN,
James Dempsey
jamesd@spirit.com.au
james.dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au

- --smxr-960717132512791 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit


- --smxr-960717132512791 --


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:13:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Subject: Re: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)
>
>On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>
>> I hope everyone found it as useful.  Working in a shipyard, especially a
>> shipyard that does military work, I could see incredible potential for
>> running a ship construction campaign.  Of course, I wouldn't want to run a
>> shipyard in an RPG, but to be on the other end, where the shipyard was
>> building my ship...I think that could be very enjoyable!!
>
>Oh, I don't know.  Working in a shipyard could be fun for an adventure or 
>two...depending on what the referee and player(s) want to make of it. :)  
>Any job could be fun that way.  The old everyworker wish of getting back 
>at the boss could be explored rather dramatically, for instance. :)

Yeah, I think I might occasionally enjoy that type of roleplay, but seeing
the way the bosses (note the plural) kiss up (we're talking BIG time) to the
customers, I think I could get much more enjoyment out of being on the
receiving end of such suck-up-ness from my boss!  Just think, even if you
got to tell your boss off, how much fun would it be to play a PC who did the
same thing for a living that you did?  A very short (we're talking hour or
two including combat) session with the boss, and I'd be through.  Hey, come
to think of it, I might just create me and my boss into T4 characters when
it comes out, and practice the combat rules for a while!  Heh Heh Heh!

>Ah, I get it now.  Thanks for the explanation.

Glad to help.  If that was your only question, I must've done a better job
at explaining than I thought.  Either that, or I totally confused everyone.
I have a tendancy to do one or the other, but I seldom ride the middle ground.


>> Hope this helps.  Let me know if you have any more questions.
>> 
>
>It did.  Thanks again.  I'll be looking forward to the time formula 
>changes you mentioned.

OK, here they are:

After the Formula for Tc, the next paragraph begins, "To this figure, add
0.16...."  replace this to the end of the "Where: Tt=" part with the following:

"Next, compute the time required for trials before delivery.  The trial time
begins with the shipyard asigning crewmen to test the various facilities
that can be tested before the actual trials begin.  This test will ensure
all staterooms are functioning, the life support and back-up systems work,
the bridge systems work, etc.  This initial phase, dry-dock testing takes up
most of the testing time, it is followed by a flight test where the systems
are tested as they actually perform during a test flight.  The total trial
time can be computed as follows:


          Tt=((P*10)/D)/12

  Where:  Tt = Trial time in years
           P = Price in MCr
           D = Diaplacement Tons"


This should fix the error in the previous formula, and should more realistic
trial times.  Also, I've checked these formula against a number of hulls in
the BL book, and they seem to be right.  I'm gonna try them against some
small (under 100 ton) ships tonight, and if anyone has large ships (over
5000 tons) please send the Disp, Price, and Name/Type of ship to me so I can
check the numbers.  I'm not real comfortable with the numbers on the few I
have (from BL and World Tamers Handbook) and would like to try some others.


Thanks, hope you enjoy!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:22:49 -0700
Subject: Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****

Robert Jolliffe wrote:

>>>Ya, but send in the marines first.  Imagine the crew on one of those
>>>puppies...  Imagaine how many burbly green, psionic, alien queen 
>>>headed, psychopaths might have survived a crash on one of those 
>>>things.
>>
>>Not to mention their super powered exoskeletal space suits (can you say
>>Battledress?)

Battledress...  Sure, I knew you could...
 
> Hummm ... Sounds like a good sequel to me.

20th Century Fox has already commited themselves to the development of a 
"Son of ID4", or is that "Bride of ID4."  The writer's would love to do 
this however they say that before a serious sequel can be made they'll 
have to come up with a really good plot idea.  Stress on the "REALLY 
GOOD"  20th C wants it out in time for 98.  Sounds like they want to 
really tie up the Sci-Fi Market in 98.  It'll be an interesting summer, 
and next summer looks hot too.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 22:29:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Imperial Family Stock (Td V96#236)

Hummm...

Imperial Family Stock eh?

Take one Emperor, put him in a pot of water, boil, cover and remove from 
heat.  Then round up one Arch-Duke and grind into a fine powder, add a 
dash of Crown Prince and an Aslan Ambassador for spice.  8)

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE!!!!!!!!!!

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:09:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Culture and Realism 

On 16 Jul 96 at 20:50, Joe Walsh spewed:

> I agree.  Heck, if they wanted to do a bit of research, they could pass 
> off many Earth-cultures as alien, since most people know little about 
> cultures other than their own.

Actually, this has already been done.  I recall 1 of the Keith 
brothers comparing the culture of the Vargr to the Dakota Sioux 
nation...

Suspect this one's already happened a time or two...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:27:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Mars\Moon Stuff

On 16 Jul 96 at 20:46, Joe Walsh spewed:

> So how does one go about winning the masses over?
> 

Personally, I think you do what Kennedy did...  Fire 'em up with the 
prospect of a Mars mission...or a moon colony...  Maybe do it under a 
UN aegis, and get a few other countries to contribute...hail it as a 
"New Era of Cooperation in Space"

And you could make the ship's computer be self-aware and name it 
Hal... (OOPS, I got carried away...)  :-)

Seriously though, NASA hasn't done much of anything since the launch 
of the 1st space shuttle that is really going to capture the public's 
imagination...  Right now, there isn't a whole lot being done in the space 
program that I find inspiring...and I get excited over that kind of 
stuff...

Heck, the Russians are doing more interesting stuff than we are...  
At least they have a station up...  NASA has basically turned the space 
shuttle into an overpriced rocket for launching satellites...or at least 
that's the public view of it...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:27:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Mars\Moon Stuff

On 16 Jul 96 at 15:11, farrarb@vnet.net spewed:

> Just continuing the converstation about why we haven't done a great deal 
> of space exploration lately...
> 
> There are 3 fairly important factors, i think, beyond those already 
> mentioned..

All great points, Bill...  :-)

> Lots of great and wonderful ideas, yet no single one has captured the 
> american imagination like the moon did (and well, kennedy was largely the 
> force there, i believe..)

Don't underestimate the fear of the Russians...  I wasn't alive then, 
but the twin scares of Sputnik and the Cuban Missile Crisis were a 
call to arms for the space program.  Kennedy just saw an opportunity 
to make hay while the sunshines with the Moon missions...

On the other hand, I don't know that anyone could have got the ball 
rolling in quite as inspirational a manner as he managed to...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:27:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Realism

On 16 Jul 96 at 15:41, Tom Ellis spewed:

> THe only real problems with an interplanetary mission are engineering
> details, no new technologies are needed.  For that matter, we have designs
> *now* for a huge .1C craft using nuclear detonation for thrust....no
> kidding.  The project was called Orion I believe.

Yeah, but who wants to volunteer for that mission...  :-)

Stu


 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:15:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Good explanation of jump process

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>Plus, the stuff in there about the jump grid and possible 
>damage effects gives me something to torture the players with out in deep 
>space after a particulary nasty battle.  "What do you mean we can't 
>jump?  Our drives never took a hit!"  "Ah, but you do remember the 30 
>holes that opened in your hull during that barrage, don't you?" :)

Joe, you're too soft a referee.  In my universe, the PCs would breathe a big
sigh of relief that they'd disengaged by jumping, and had no indication of
misjump.  Then instead of a quick week to wherever, they'd have to role-play
the nightmare of alarms, electronic failures, and mysterious medical
problems, which, coupled with the zillion surface hits taken in the fight,
would lead them to conclude that the jump grid wasn't functioning quite
right.  Then they'd have to trace and repair it, or at least mark off the
holes where j-space might -- or might not -- be reaching in.  

In my universe, exposure to jump space screws up electromagnetic activity.
It doesn't stop it, but scrambles it unpredictably.  The results are
predictable, however:  The first things to go would be the sensitive
electromagnetic processes of neural activity. This is manifested in vomiting
and cramping; then hallucinations and synesthesia; then death as the
autonomic nervous system stops reminding the lungs and heart to work.  Next,
the computers and other electronics would short out, burn, shut down, or
whatever (roll d6).  The light bulbs would blow out at some point, too (at
least on TL7 or lower ships).  

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:15:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: conversation with Lester Smith

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>> 3). aging is done in 5 year blocks starting at 30
>
>Wonder what the reason for this change was.

I think that it's to make it more realistic.  Since I turned 30 (almost a
decade ago), time has indeed speeded up.  I would think that aging should be
done in 6 year blocks after age 40.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:15:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re:  The Iridium Standard

>From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>

>In my book, threatening to destabilize the Imperium would be treason. 
>Governments seldom tread lightly when dealing with treason. 

>But, realistically, I doubt either side would let it get that far, 
>there *is* a bit of a terror balance there. (Also, any Board that 
>started a war with the government would get thrown (at .1c or more 
>;-) out of the corp as soon as anyone could manage. 

I would think that a stockholders' derivative action would be commenced as
soon as word got out.  And if you think war is hell, you've never been in a
derivative action.

Scene:  Attorneys' meeting at Led & Water (plaintiffs' counsel in
above-referenced case):

Eneri Led (name partner):  What's the status of the In re Tukera Lines case?

Pavel Daavi (junior partner):  Defendants are producing fifty terabytes of
internal communications and such crap for our review, and I'm sending
Smithers with some robots to go through it.  They've also moved to change
venue from Capital/Core to someplace in Diaspora.  Patterjee and Shamaagin
are working on the brief; we've filed an opposition to their motion to
increase the page limit to 500.  The most important thing going on, however,
is that our investigator has located Winitka Tukusagi, the former chief
financial officer, on Feri in the Spinward Marches.  Because she's gone to
ground on a world run by one of Tukera's major competitors in that market,
we can surmise that she's willing to talk to us.  I've sent two of our
better associates to interview her and bring her back here for a deposition.

Led:  Which associates?

Daavi:  These two [gesturing at the PCs]:  Morgenstern, ex-Imperial naval
intelligence instructor, and Changling, who quit the Foreign Ministry to
work for us.  If they can't get the evidence out of Tukusagi --

Led:  then we'll have to do it ourselves! hahaaaha!

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:15:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Traveller miniatures

>From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>

>You have the tank and APC?  Cool!  Since you are "Down Under," are these
things 

Way cool -- in almost twenty years of involvment with the game, I've never
even seen the tank and APC, except in pictures.

>For that matter, how about other 15mm suppliers?  

>If anyone knows of a source of  the Martian Metals minis, or even a source for 
>the old Grenadier boxed Traveller minis, posting that info to the TML would be 
>a good thing (well, for me, anyway)

Check with Kevin Knight, who produces the Traveller Chronicle.  He sells
out-of-print Traveller stuff (all eras), and I've gotten some nice
miniatures from him.

Keep an eye out for Laserburn 15mm science fiction figures and vehicles.
This was a British company, I think.  The workmanship and detail are very
nice.  Laserburn was in production in the early 1980s.

I've heard that Citadel made Traveller 25mm figures in the early 80s, as
well, but I've never seen them.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 00:15:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>ps. Assuming we can recover enough data from the wreckage to build our
>own, one would hope that all involved have the brains to make our
>vessels look as *little* like theirs as is practical. :-)

I'm assuming that's the subject of the first sequel:  Labor Day.  Labor Day
follows (1) military units charged with hunting down the survivors and
bringing them somewhere for interrogation; (2) scientists figuring out how
to build new ships; and (3) telepaths and lawyers interrogating the prisoners.

Then:  Thanksgiving
Thanksgiving tells the story of the first human interstellar vehicle,
cobbled together from wrecked invader ships, new materials, and baling wire,
and its intrepid crew, as they boldly go ...

Followed by:  Christmas
By Christmas, earth has developed a good-sized war fleet, nominally under UN
control, but with each ship actually sponsored and crewed by one major
power.  The usual problems of economics and population cause tensions to
mount, until the aliens' second strike arrives, and everybody has to pull
together to save the earth again.

If we're still buying tickets, they'll produce: New Year's Day
In New Year's Day, the united earth fleet, with new captured ships, looks
for vengeance on the aliens' current home world.

I haven't figured out what the plots of Valentine's Day and Presidents' Day
will be, but I'm sure that someone in marketing already has.

- --Glenn

"I coulda been at a BARBECUE!!"  --Capt. S.E. Hiller, USMC


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 17:48:08 +1000
Subject: Re: "TNE Wrap-Up" (tying up the loose ends)

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Franklin W. Cain wrote:

> Perhaps if enough Traveller fans pester them and make their lives miserable
> until they get back to me, something will happen.
> 
> Until I hear something from them, it is premature to spill beans elsewhere.
> 
> Dave

I for one am interested, if only for completness sake. Mainly due to the 
fact that I have Survival Margin, and there are too many loose ends in 
there already.

Darryl

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #262
**********************************

To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

unsubscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".
